Interview with Renee Maxine Haas
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I learned that there are parts of us that we
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think is our authentic version of ourselves,
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but it's really just layers of coping mechanisms
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or survival of the modern world. As an example,
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being an A type or being highly attached to being
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the productive one or the organized one or the
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one that has it all together or the one that
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has all the answers. And we think this is who
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we are, but really it's just. these layers that
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we've added on to ourselves. Have you ever looked
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at the life you worked hard to build and wondered
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why it no longer feels like yours? You may know
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something needs to change, but still want a clear
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picture of what comes next before you risk taking
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another step. Welcome to The Original Self podcast.
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I'm Evet DeCota, a psychology -informed life
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coach, and today I'm joined by author and podcast
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host Renee Maxine Haas. At 35, Renee left a successful
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tech career and spent two years traveling solo
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through 50 countries. Her memoir, The Fog in
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the Flow, a memoir of finding trust in the face
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of uncertainty, explores what happens when someone
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accustomed to planning steps into a life she
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can't fully predict. What drew me to Renee's
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story was the question of who we are when the
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familiar ways of defining ourselves completely
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fall away, and when achievement and responsibility
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take up so much space, which parts of ourselves
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do we stop making room for? And then what might
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we rediscover when we begin paying attention?
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We're going to talk about identity, the pull
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of certainty, and learning to trust your judgment
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while you're still figuring things out. We'll
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also explore what those lessons can offer someone
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whose next step needs to happen right in the
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middle of their everyday life. If this speaks
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to you through something you're navigating, I
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offer a free discovery call at dakotalifecoaching
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.com. It's a simple conversation about where
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you are, what you want to help with. There's
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no pressure. There's no commitment. So welcome,
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Renee, to the Original Self podcast. How you
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doing? I'm doing so well. I'm really excited
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to be here today to have a really enriching conversation
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with you. I'm delighted. It's going to be great.
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All right. So let's just jump right into it.
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Okay. Your book and email described how you asked
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yourself, what if I quit my job and travel the
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world? Which I think is terrifying for many people.
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And in two days, you decided, yeah, that's what
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I'm going to do. So my question to you was, what
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was happening inside your brain and your body
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that you went, yeah, I'm going to go for this?
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Yeah, that's such a good question. How did I
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get to that point? And how did I decide in just
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two days that that's something that I was going
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to do? For a lot of my life, I was the type of
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person that tried to do things by the book. I
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really valued safety, security, financial freedom.
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I made a lot of decisions in my life based off
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of what makes sense, what is expected. And even
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when I chose my career at the age of 13, job
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security was something that I was thinking about.
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Luckily for me, that career was a passion. I
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truly, truly loved being a web developer. writing
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code. I loved it. But once I got into my mid
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-30s and I had gone quite senior in my role,
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that passion began to fade. I essentially had
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reached my goal of where I was trying to get.
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And so for a while I negotiated with, okay, I
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can stay in this a little bit longer. Not everyone
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loves their job forever. But that only worked
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for so long for me. I felt this pull and this
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deep sense of, I'm not supposed to be doing this
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anymore. But it became a very emotional time
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because trying to replace a passion career with
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what I had wanted, another passion career was
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very, very challenging to do. And I didn't know
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what to do instead. I felt super stuck. I felt
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very, very lost and It was like, as I describe,
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walking in a fog where you can only see a little
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bit ahead of you, but no longer this long vision
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path. And I used to have this long runway, and
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now I can only see right in front of me. It was
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incredibly challenging for me, the uncertainty
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and not having a clear vision. When I came to
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this idea, To quit my job to travel the world.
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It came out of this Moment out of nowhere really
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out of frustration. Oh, what if I just But in
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that moment with that idea something clicked
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for me and I thought Wait a minute. What if I
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did do that? from there It took me just two days
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to decide one is that It was this final moment
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where okay. This is a real idea this is some
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kind of direction. It wasn't the direction that
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I was ever looking for. And so the idea surprised
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me. But I started to look at the future version
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of me as if it was looking back upon my life
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and the years to come. That's interesting. I
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thought about there was one path I could see
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where I stayed the course of my life that I had
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things okay. I eventually accomplished all the
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things that I wanted, like being a homeowner.
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But yeah, life was okay. But then I saw this
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version of my life where I said, yes, this great
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adventure. I didn't focus on the fears or what
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might happen after or even during. And I realized
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I would regret not taking that opportunity. And
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so it was that regret that helped me make the
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decision to say yes. to this grand adventure.
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That's a lot of thinking in two days. I think
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that most people would be so fearful of those
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thoughts and losing the comfort in knowing that
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those two days might have been two minutes and
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then that thought would have gone out the door.
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That's why I was so intrigued about you. From
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your description on paper your life was success,
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you know, you were successful but You talk about
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the burnout, but how did you tell the difference
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between the burnout and then that deeper? Feeling
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of this is no longer mine. This is no longer
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what I want Like how'd you do that? Yeah, the
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biggest distinction that I can clarify is that
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it went way beyond the mind It was this inner
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gut feeling that would not be quiet, that was
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speaking the loudest to me, this whole this it's
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time for something different, something has to
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change now in your life and a new chapter needs
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to be birthed. And so even though my mind kept
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circling around back to trying to solve things
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and plan things out and logic my way through
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it, it's that gut feeling that I could not ignore.
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And you're right, making that decision in two
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days, based off of everything I've described,
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that is the fastest big life decision I have
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ever made that quickly. It was an uncharacteristic
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move for me. And so that just tells you a lot
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about where I was and how things were going to
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start to look a little bit different with how
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I made decisions. Yeah. It's interesting to me
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that you trusted your gut like that. And I read
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in your book, you know, that you are somebody
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that plans, were somebody that planned everything
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logistically. You know, that's how your brain
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works. You know, writing code, like whatever,
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right? Like that's how your brain worked. So
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I love that you just had that visceral feeling
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like this has to change and you actually listen
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to it. That to me is like, that's the original
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self going, come on Renee. Absolutely. And it
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was such a relief. That was the biggest feeling
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too that I felt in that moment. When I finally
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had a direction, I was so relieved. Here's something
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that I can actually action upon. And in those
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early stages, gearing up towards doing this,
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I had spent an entire summer then preparing for
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it. I research, what is something like this cost?
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How long can I do it? How do the finances play
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out? How do I budget? What do I pack? Where do
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I go and what order? All of the logistics is
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how I started into this journey. Which I think
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is smart. I mean, you don't want to just go out
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there with $5. You know what I mean? Like, it's
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smart to know, I'm going to map this out so I
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don't have to go backwards. You know, that kind
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of thing. I'm totally into that. As a Type A
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planner, I believe in that. Yes. All right. Yes,
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exactly. We speak the same language. Okay. So
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why do you think we stay attached to milestones
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like the home? You talked about wanting to buy
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this house, right? And the title, right? Sea
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level in the company and the timeline, right?
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Long after they stopped meaning anything to us,
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we're still defined by it, we're still attached
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to it. Why do you think that is? There's multiple
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layers to this. One is that if you, and we are,
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we're raised with a script. And when you're handed
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a script of how you're supposed to go about your
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life, what is the correct way to do it, at a
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young age especially. We're heavily influenced
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by that and to start to question something like
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that is something that takes usually a big pivot
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for us to go off of script of the things that
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we've been told to do. Secondly, I think that
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we have a lot of worry and concern about what
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other people think and it heavily influences
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how we make decisions, especially those that
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are closest to us, our friends and our family
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who ultimately want us just to be happy and want
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the best for us, but sometimes they have an idea
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of how you can get to that happiness, or if they
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see you trying to do something new, as an example,
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starting a business. But maybe they had some
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of their own limiting beliefs that, for example,
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starting a business is not going to work out,
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it doesn't make sense. Maybe for them, they would
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have had a fear or had limited their selves from
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doing that. And now they're putting their own
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anxieties about it onto you. And then there's
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this internal thing as well. Like sometimes we're
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heavily invested into a path and we don't want
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to let it go. Maybe it could be you might be
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someone a little bit younger in your 20s and
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you just graduated from university. You're a
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year into your career and you realize that you
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don't really like anything. Oh, I've invested
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this education, but I barely started. I need
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to stick it out. Or you could be much later into
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your career. You could be in your 50s. You've
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had a lot of success, but you think, oh, okay,
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I just have to make it a little bit further.
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Why would I pivot now? Right. Yeah. Yeah. And
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then some of the things like we, something served
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us for a moment of time and then something has
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changed for us. And we have to go through kind
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of a grieving and a letting go process of what
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worked for us before and our identity tied up
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into that. 100%. Yeah. It's just always funny
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to me that when I hear somebody that's completely
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miserable in their job, right, but they've reached
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the highest level they can and they hate it so
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much. And I always hear them say like, well,
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I only have five more years to do this. And I
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think to myself, five years of being miserable,
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that's a lot of hours. It's a lot of hours. And
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then I kind of try to rectify that in my mind
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as a hairstylist, primarily, that's my job. I
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could just go to a different salon, right? It's
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that easy for me. It's not that easy if you're
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like, you know, the vice president of something
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and then trying to get another job in your 50s,
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right? It's not that easy. So the alternative
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is to just stick with it. Because thinking about
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not having the money, having to change your life
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that drastically is a scary thing. But, you know,
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I mean, some people do this, correct? Yeah, absolutely.
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And I can imagine, too, for people in those kinds
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of situations that they've come accustomed to
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certain things like being perceived in a certain
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way because they're senior in their role and
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there's a lot of identity tied up into things
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like career or even roles like being a mother
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or a father and then the children are older.
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We definitely have a lot of attachments to these
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kinds of things and considering this entire different
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shift in your life, even if it's just five years
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left, I love what you say there. It's like, but
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are you going to be unhappy for five years? Yeah.
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You have this life. Yeah, this is it. You're
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meant to do different things and you're not meant
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to stay the same forever. So yeah, change can
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be scary for sure and a big emotional shift.
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Yes, completely. Okay, speaking of that, was
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there something that you had to let go of psychologically
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before you could let go of your job and your
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possessions? I heard about your walnut table
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and I'm a girl that likes all that same stuff,
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right? So, you worked hard for that. I'm sure
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it was expensive. It was nice. stuff that you
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had. So psychologically, was there something
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you had to let go before the job or was that
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the first thing that you psychologically let
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go of and then everything followed? Yeah, that
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was a big part of my saying yes journey. I really
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had a dream of being a homeowner. It still to
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this day is something that is important to me.
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And I had been saving up for over a decade. towards
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that goal. And for me, my experience and other
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people my age and younger, as for some home buyers,
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it's extremely challenging these years. For me,
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my experience was I would save more and then
00:16:21.700 --> 00:16:23.740
interest rates would go up. I would save more
00:16:23.740 --> 00:16:26.279
and then prices will go up. And it always seemed
00:16:26.279 --> 00:16:29.279
like the more prepared I was, the further out
00:16:29.279 --> 00:16:32.960
of reach it was. And I wanted to be a homeowner,
00:16:33.159 --> 00:16:39.240
not just or the practicality of it, but I deeply
00:16:39.240 --> 00:16:43.039
wanted to experience expressing my creativity.
00:16:43.379 --> 00:16:46.919
I love interior design and it's something that
00:16:46.919 --> 00:16:49.980
I've always been excited to be able to express.
00:16:50.559 --> 00:16:53.879
And I wanted to create spaces for people to come
00:16:53.879 --> 00:16:57.120
together and create memories, whether it's a
00:16:57.120 --> 00:17:00.580
game night or a movie night or a dinner party.
00:17:00.940 --> 00:17:05.279
I wanted to host. I saw my mom doing it growing
00:17:05.279 --> 00:17:10.099
up and getting pretty flowers for the table and
00:17:10.099 --> 00:17:13.299
trying out unique recipes. And I thought, I want
00:17:13.299 --> 00:17:17.539
that for myself. And also in this period of time
00:17:17.539 --> 00:17:21.660
leading up, I bought very expensive furniture,
00:17:21.880 --> 00:17:26.779
beautiful walnut, as you mentioned, walnut wood
00:17:26.779 --> 00:17:29.960
furniture and velvets and all these beautiful
00:17:29.960 --> 00:17:34.869
things. And so that is the biggest thing that
00:17:34.869 --> 00:17:38.769
I had to let go of in order to do this travel
00:17:38.769 --> 00:17:43.049
experience. I had to seriously delay that dream
00:17:43.049 --> 00:17:46.970
that I had been working for and had been grasping
00:17:46.970 --> 00:17:51.029
onto with like tight fist trying to make it happen
00:17:51.029 --> 00:17:55.630
for myself and to take the finances that I had
00:17:55.630 --> 00:17:59.240
saved and put it towards the travel. I did think
00:17:59.240 --> 00:18:01.660
it to myself at one point, what am I not going
00:18:01.660 --> 00:18:04.859
to do this because I have nice furniture? No,
00:18:05.400 --> 00:18:11.119
it's just things. But it was one sacrifice that
00:18:11.119 --> 00:18:15.900
I had to make and I had to let go in order to
00:18:15.900 --> 00:18:19.680
have this experience. When you let go of the
00:18:19.680 --> 00:18:24.140
material, was there readying in your mind like,
00:18:24.480 --> 00:18:28.390
okay, I let go of that, here we go? There was,
00:18:28.470 --> 00:18:31.789
and I especially remember being down to my last
00:18:31.789 --> 00:18:35.930
piece of furniture, this beautiful green, what
00:18:35.930 --> 00:18:38.950
I would say like the millennial sofa, this velvet
00:18:38.950 --> 00:18:41.710
sofa with the queen pull -out bed in it. It was
00:18:41.710 --> 00:18:44.049
my bed. It was where I watched TV. It was the
00:18:44.049 --> 00:18:47.170
last piece of furniture in my luxury apartment
00:18:47.170 --> 00:18:50.980
was empty and this was the last step. And there
00:18:50.980 --> 00:18:54.259
was this sense of, okay, this is really happening.
00:18:54.839 --> 00:18:58.960
And this lightness. I felt really light all of
00:18:58.960 --> 00:19:02.809
a sudden. It was incredibly freeing. That's great.
00:19:03.799 --> 00:19:08.039
In chapter one, it's called Echo, you speak about
00:19:08.039 --> 00:19:12.660
how your life no longer matched how you felt
00:19:12.660 --> 00:19:16.359
or thought it should be. You describe a void
00:19:16.359 --> 00:19:21.509
between versions of yourself. What do you think?
00:19:21.740 --> 00:19:25.380
the in -between or why do you think the in -between
00:19:25.380 --> 00:19:29.019
is so uncomfortable even when we choose that
00:19:29.019 --> 00:19:34.240
change? Yeah, this void period between one chapter
00:19:34.240 --> 00:19:37.740
of your life and another and for me very much
00:19:37.740 --> 00:19:42.180
one identity and a new identity that I was coming
00:19:42.180 --> 00:19:45.619
into was a several year period and it was really
00:19:45.619 --> 00:19:50.160
taking place with over the years that I traveled
00:19:50.160 --> 00:19:55.900
and even in the year to follow. That at the beginning
00:19:55.900 --> 00:20:00.079
was the very introduction, the initiation into,
00:20:00.480 --> 00:20:03.640
okay, I'm going to go on this grand adventure.
00:20:04.099 --> 00:20:07.779
I am saying goodbye to the past adventure, but
00:20:07.779 --> 00:20:11.900
really the true next chapter of my life, what
00:20:11.900 --> 00:20:15.000
was to come was really going to be the post -travel
00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:17.900
life. What is it when I come back to the quote
00:20:17.900 --> 00:20:21.259
unquote real world, what is left? And I went
00:20:21.259 --> 00:20:25.069
through this huge, this huge experience of letting
00:20:25.069 --> 00:20:29.089
so many things go. Not only was it my attachment
00:20:29.089 --> 00:20:32.690
to the career that I used to have, but now in
00:20:32.690 --> 00:20:37.130
travel, I was away from family, away from friends.
00:20:37.450 --> 00:20:41.329
I wasn't in the role of coworker or best friend
00:20:41.329 --> 00:20:44.529
on a day -to -day basis. I wasn't a person that
00:20:44.529 --> 00:20:47.150
hiked on the weekend or watched Grave's Anatomy
00:20:47.150 --> 00:20:50.049
in the evenings. There were so many of these
00:20:50.220 --> 00:20:53.900
layers that were being stripped away. And I was
00:20:53.900 --> 00:20:58.940
starting to find the things about me that once
00:20:58.940 --> 00:21:03.859
all of that was gone, what was left. And the
00:21:03.859 --> 00:21:06.940
interesting thing that I found was it was a lot
00:21:06.940 --> 00:21:10.619
of stuff that had always been there, but that
00:21:10.619 --> 00:21:13.579
things that were not necessarily me had taken
00:21:13.579 --> 00:21:17.339
over and got piled onto. Stuff that was true
00:21:17.339 --> 00:21:20.670
about me. way back in my childhood, like my love
00:21:20.670 --> 00:21:24.509
for being in nature, or how much I just loved
00:21:24.509 --> 00:21:29.019
trying new foods. There was these different calling
00:21:29.019 --> 00:21:33.059
back to, as well as making all of this space
00:21:33.059 --> 00:21:36.940
to let go of things that were no longer serving
00:21:36.940 --> 00:21:42.920
me so that new parts of me, experiences, knowledge,
00:21:43.160 --> 00:21:46.859
wisdom, could come in while I was traveling.
00:21:47.170 --> 00:21:51.750
to serve me in my next chapter. Yeah. It's interesting
00:21:51.750 --> 00:21:55.069
to me because, you know, Western culture, we're
00:21:55.069 --> 00:21:57.930
independent, right? We're an independent society
00:21:57.930 --> 00:22:02.390
or culture. But like in Eastern culture, it's
00:22:02.390 --> 00:22:07.230
very much interdependent. Yet, when you were
00:22:07.230 --> 00:22:12.380
preparing for this journey, even though you were
00:22:12.380 --> 00:22:16.609
doing this independently, you had to kind of
00:22:16.609 --> 00:22:20.750
pushed down the role of daughter and any other
00:22:20.750 --> 00:22:24.059
title that you had. And so I don't think you
00:22:24.059 --> 00:22:27.259
can just describe Western culture as independent
00:22:27.259 --> 00:22:30.660
because we still do have those, I am a sister,
00:22:30.740 --> 00:22:33.039
I am a daughter, I am a mother, like whatever
00:22:33.039 --> 00:22:37.000
it is, right? So it's interesting that in between
00:22:37.000 --> 00:22:42.440
is where you had to say, I'm still that, but
00:22:42.569 --> 00:22:45.289
I'm also this that I've kind of pushed down.
00:22:45.349 --> 00:22:48.250
So I just like where that's going. And so that
00:22:48.250 --> 00:22:51.910
kind of leads me to self -trust. Absolutely.
00:22:52.589 --> 00:22:54.970
And I also, I wanted to go back to your original
00:22:54.970 --> 00:22:57.349
question a little bit where you spoke, you sort
00:22:57.349 --> 00:23:00.829
of asked me like the challenge of that and what
00:23:00.829 --> 00:23:04.210
came up. And it exactly leads into what you're
00:23:04.210 --> 00:23:07.170
leading into now with the self -trust from this
00:23:07.170 --> 00:23:13.140
space, this void of change. One, change is scary
00:23:13.140 --> 00:23:16.720
for people in general, but for me, one of the
00:23:16.720 --> 00:23:21.390
biggest challenges was I still didn't know what
00:23:21.390 --> 00:23:25.630
I should do with my life after this travel. And
00:23:25.630 --> 00:23:29.710
that uncertainty was deeply uncomfortable for
00:23:29.710 --> 00:23:33.049
me. I had always operated from a space that was
00:23:33.049 --> 00:23:35.809
forward -thinking. In fact, I very often thought
00:23:35.809 --> 00:23:38.769
about the future a lot more than I thought about
00:23:38.769 --> 00:23:44.849
the present moment. and not really knowing what
00:23:44.849 --> 00:23:48.250
to do next. At the beginning of my travel was
00:23:48.250 --> 00:23:51.009
something that I sort of pushed aside. I got
00:23:51.009 --> 00:23:54.190
swept up in the joy and the adventure of the
00:23:54.190 --> 00:23:59.089
travel itself, but six months in, it really hit
00:23:59.089 --> 00:24:04.609
me in those quiet moments. I could not hide from
00:24:04.609 --> 00:24:09.289
all of those anxieties that I was having about
00:24:09.339 --> 00:24:13.420
being in that position. This is what led me to
00:24:13.420 --> 00:24:16.380
realizing that I needed to do things differently.
00:24:17.430 --> 00:24:21.069
What helped me so much at this point in my travel
00:24:21.069 --> 00:24:24.970
was I had slowed down a lot and I was becoming
00:24:24.970 --> 00:24:29.190
more present to the now moment. Instead of always
00:24:29.190 --> 00:24:31.309
thinking about the future, future, future, I
00:24:31.309 --> 00:24:36.549
was here now enjoying one day at a time and I
00:24:36.549 --> 00:24:41.380
was in a slower pace. So I got to hear my intuition
00:24:41.380 --> 00:24:45.220
more. I got to hear those nudges of, okay, let's
00:24:45.220 --> 00:24:48.779
go here. So that it wasn't just in the mind all
00:24:48.779 --> 00:24:52.460
the time. And I also started to think about how
00:24:52.460 --> 00:24:56.599
I could navigate this time differently because
00:24:56.599 --> 00:25:00.450
I was creating my own suffering by constantly
00:25:00.450 --> 00:25:04.069
worrying and trying to have everything all figured
00:25:04.069 --> 00:25:09.299
out. Yeah, like your story in Japan when you
00:25:09.299 --> 00:25:13.880
didn't get on the metro and you were left to
00:25:13.880 --> 00:25:16.140
your own devices because your friend just went
00:25:16.140 --> 00:25:19.440
whizzing by when the train left, you know. And
00:25:19.440 --> 00:25:22.759
I felt that panic as you wrote about it and I
00:25:22.759 --> 00:25:25.359
just thought, oh my God, it's so confusing, you
00:25:25.359 --> 00:25:28.059
know, and you trusted what you needed to do.
00:25:28.430 --> 00:25:31.029
you did what you were told, count the stops instead
00:25:31.029 --> 00:25:33.569
of listening, you know, kind of thing. And I
00:25:33.569 --> 00:25:36.470
just thought, wow, that must have been such a
00:25:36.470 --> 00:25:41.970
huge moment where you realized, trust yourself,
00:25:42.089 --> 00:25:45.009
you're going to be fine, right? Like I was thinking
00:25:45.009 --> 00:25:46.710
that. Yeah, I mean, you wrote about it, but I
00:25:46.710 --> 00:25:48.529
just, I could feel it, is what I'm trying to
00:25:48.529 --> 00:25:50.950
say, yeah. No, absolutely. It's such a great
00:25:50.950 --> 00:25:54.950
story. I definitely encourage, if you're interested
00:25:54.950 --> 00:25:58.000
in my book, The Fog and the Flow, I do. tell
00:25:58.000 --> 00:26:01.559
this story, it's, you will absolutely feel it.
00:26:01.759 --> 00:26:05.920
I think anyone who is newer to travel or just
00:26:05.920 --> 00:26:08.039
getting out of your comfort zone has experienced
00:26:08.039 --> 00:26:12.220
before doing something for the first time. Maybe
00:26:12.220 --> 00:26:14.980
they were relying on some help from someone else
00:26:14.980 --> 00:26:17.180
that help disappears and now you have to figure
00:26:17.180 --> 00:26:19.720
out on your own. For me, it was figuring out
00:26:19.720 --> 00:26:24.160
public transit and a train and absolutely panicking
00:26:24.160 --> 00:26:28.309
a moment, but then having to step up. and trust
00:26:28.309 --> 00:26:30.890
myself to figure out instead of what I might
00:26:30.890 --> 00:26:33.589
have normally done, which was like retreat, get
00:26:33.589 --> 00:26:35.990
an expensive Uber back, just say like, no, I'm
00:26:35.990 --> 00:26:40.549
not doing this. I think it's important and it
00:26:40.549 --> 00:26:43.289
really ties back to how to navigate these periods
00:26:43.289 --> 00:26:48.130
of unknown, uncertainty, transitions with so
00:26:48.130 --> 00:26:52.529
much self -trust and how to get there is look
00:26:52.529 --> 00:26:55.819
at all of the examples in your past. When you've
00:26:55.819 --> 00:26:57.660
shown up for yourself when things were going
00:26:57.660 --> 00:27:01.140
really well, and you rise to the occasion when
00:27:01.140 --> 00:27:05.559
things went sideways or totally fell apart, you
00:27:05.559 --> 00:27:08.460
always stepped up and showed up for yourself
00:27:08.460 --> 00:27:11.839
whatever your life was asking of you. So why
00:27:11.839 --> 00:27:13.980
wouldn't you trust yourself to do the same in
00:27:13.980 --> 00:27:17.240
the future, even if you don't know exactly what
00:27:17.240 --> 00:27:20.440
that future is going to be? I think it's often
00:27:20.440 --> 00:27:24.420
because we remember the negative part. instead
00:27:24.420 --> 00:27:29.019
of the victory part, right? We realize the negative,
00:27:29.339 --> 00:27:32.619
we remember the negative because it's about survival
00:27:32.619 --> 00:27:35.839
and evolution, right? But if we could just stop
00:27:35.839 --> 00:27:39.779
for that one second and go, I was in Japan surrounded
00:27:39.779 --> 00:27:43.279
by thousands of people on this, you know, there's
00:27:43.279 --> 00:27:45.000
only so many people that can fit in the train,
00:27:45.019 --> 00:27:49.059
you know, and I missed it. And I literally had
00:27:49.059 --> 00:27:52.460
no clue where I was. And that panic sets in instead
00:27:52.460 --> 00:27:55.269
of saying, Well, I was just in Australia and
00:27:55.269 --> 00:27:57.349
I was just here and I figured out everything
00:27:57.349 --> 00:28:00.190
how to do that, right? Like, yes, I mapped it
00:28:00.190 --> 00:28:03.529
out, but I still figured out how to do it. And
00:28:03.529 --> 00:28:07.789
so I think for you, you kept putting yourself
00:28:07.789 --> 00:28:12.670
in these situations that were unfamiliar until
00:28:12.670 --> 00:28:15.309
your body, your brain, your mind, whatever, your
00:28:15.309 --> 00:28:19.329
inner self said, I can do this. I can do this.
00:28:20.490 --> 00:28:23.150
I have a question for you, but it belongs right
00:28:23.150 --> 00:28:27.029
here. The self -sufficient traveler, right? That's
00:28:27.029 --> 00:28:30.869
the badge of honor. But at times you did have
00:28:30.869 --> 00:28:34.230
to ask for help and you describe yourself as
00:28:34.230 --> 00:28:36.549
an introvert, right? So asking for help seems
00:28:36.549 --> 00:28:39.109
like, oh God, I got to talk to somebody, you
00:28:39.109 --> 00:28:42.829
know, and I got to ask for this help. So it's
00:28:42.829 --> 00:28:48.240
going against your nature. Basically, what did
00:28:48.240 --> 00:28:51.890
accepting the help teach you? What did stretching
00:28:51.890 --> 00:28:55.910
your comfort and ignoring that, I can't do this,
00:28:55.910 --> 00:28:58.630
I can't do this, I think I already know. What
00:28:58.630 --> 00:29:01.650
did it do for you? What did it teach you? It
00:29:01.650 --> 00:29:06.430
was such a long journey to learn this life lesson.
00:29:07.029 --> 00:29:10.369
From where I came from, I was raised to be self
00:29:10.369 --> 00:29:14.869
-sufficient, to be independent. It was, and especially
00:29:14.869 --> 00:29:18.809
in Western culture, while we do have friends,
00:29:19.029 --> 00:29:24.299
community, We are largely in it for ourselves.
00:29:24.940 --> 00:29:28.140
We have to take care of ourselves. We make decisions
00:29:28.140 --> 00:29:32.380
often with ourselves, maybe with a spouse, but
00:29:32.380 --> 00:29:35.819
we're in it. Whereas I learned in other cultures,
00:29:35.920 --> 00:29:38.539
it's not necessarily always like that. As an
00:29:38.539 --> 00:29:41.640
example, Uruguay left a lasting impression on
00:29:41.640 --> 00:29:45.900
me because their culture is so much more community,
00:29:46.480 --> 00:29:50.130
family focused. really, truly has work -life
00:29:50.130 --> 00:29:55.089
balance. They value time and time together so
00:29:55.089 --> 00:29:59.890
much more over achievement and possessions. And
00:29:59.890 --> 00:30:03.329
it was very eye -opening. As I started to travel
00:30:03.329 --> 00:30:06.190
in the beginning, I had to step out of my comfort
00:30:06.190 --> 00:30:09.930
zone and adapt all the time to new countries,
00:30:10.109 --> 00:30:14.269
new currencies, new customs, being in a, living
00:30:14.269 --> 00:30:18.509
in a hostel. and navigating that for the first
00:30:18.509 --> 00:30:25.200
time. And so a lot of ways it made me so much
00:30:25.200 --> 00:30:29.980
more confident and I have what it takes to figure
00:30:29.980 --> 00:30:32.859
things out as they came. It started to stretch
00:30:32.859 --> 00:30:36.140
me a little bit and work a muscle that, oh, it's
00:30:36.140 --> 00:30:40.980
okay to be a beginner. It's okay to try. But
00:30:40.980 --> 00:30:44.059
what it started to do in the beginning was make
00:30:44.059 --> 00:30:48.210
me a little bit hyper -independent. There were
00:30:48.210 --> 00:30:53.329
times, especially in the beginning, where I could
00:30:53.329 --> 00:30:56.650
have let other people in, but I did not. I went
00:30:56.650 --> 00:30:59.809
snorkeling in Bali and I'm terrified of drowning.
00:31:00.390 --> 00:31:04.750
It's like my biggest physical life fear. And
00:31:04.750 --> 00:31:07.130
so as we were about to go snorkeling, I internally
00:31:07.130 --> 00:31:09.910
am having a really hard time. I'm super, super
00:31:09.910 --> 00:31:13.529
anxious. My hands are shaking and I'm with a
00:31:13.529 --> 00:31:17.539
group, but I'm not telling anybody that I'm having
00:31:17.539 --> 00:31:20.400
a hard time. I'm not letting anyone in to help
00:31:20.400 --> 00:31:25.099
comfort me, to make me feel more calm. I'm just
00:31:25.099 --> 00:31:29.200
doing it all on my own. Even at times before
00:31:29.200 --> 00:31:32.980
I had this final victory of tackling transit,
00:31:33.480 --> 00:31:35.740
I was avoiding it for a long time because I didn't
00:31:35.740 --> 00:31:38.200
want to admit that like, I need help and I don't
00:31:38.200 --> 00:31:41.880
know how to do this. Much later into my travels,
00:31:42.539 --> 00:31:46.099
I had this really profound experience for me
00:31:46.099 --> 00:31:50.480
that super, was like this moment that sticks
00:31:50.480 --> 00:31:53.799
so well in my memory. I was in Iceland on a tour.
00:31:54.680 --> 00:31:57.920
I went ahead to go photograph a waterfall and
00:31:57.920 --> 00:32:01.519
the rest of the group had continued on. Then
00:32:01.519 --> 00:32:04.619
finally, as I went to join them, there was this
00:32:04.619 --> 00:32:08.420
couple that had waited for me. I thought, oh,
00:32:08.420 --> 00:32:10.480
at first my reaction was like, oh, you didn't
00:32:10.480 --> 00:32:14.319
have to do that. And then I realized like, wow.
00:32:14.509 --> 00:32:17.809
They wanted to wait for me. Someone was wanting
00:32:17.809 --> 00:32:22.670
to be there for me. And how many times have I
00:32:22.670 --> 00:32:26.130
given the energy that I didn't need anybody else,
00:32:26.450 --> 00:32:29.970
didn't be in the receiving mode to allow other
00:32:29.970 --> 00:32:33.730
people in, to give me help, to offer me support.
00:32:34.769 --> 00:32:38.730
It was kind of an aha moment that I brought back
00:32:38.730 --> 00:32:43.440
with me post travels and started to see how maybe
00:32:43.440 --> 00:32:45.900
I could handle my closer relationships a little
00:32:45.900 --> 00:32:48.779
bit differently now. Isn't that interesting?
00:32:49.039 --> 00:32:53.160
You know what? One little moment makes you realize
00:32:53.160 --> 00:32:58.420
that people want to connect. And if you let them,
00:32:59.079 --> 00:33:01.019
I don't know, I think your life is richer for
00:33:01.019 --> 00:33:04.940
it, you know? And letting somebody in, like having
00:33:04.940 --> 00:33:08.279
that trust, like, wow, that's pretty cool. I
00:33:08.279 --> 00:33:13.759
like that a lot. Do you think because you claim
00:33:14.660 --> 00:33:17.140
Claims sounds like it's not true because you
00:33:17.140 --> 00:33:20.279
feel that you're an introvert That that is why
00:33:20.279 --> 00:33:22.579
a lot of times you're like, okay, you know your
00:33:22.579 --> 00:33:25.539
family taught you to be self -reliant but do
00:33:25.539 --> 00:33:28.460
you think the introversion is where you Just
00:33:28.460 --> 00:33:32.000
kind of help people at bay a little bit. Maybe
00:33:32.000 --> 00:33:33.779
not trusting them. I don't know I'm not trying
00:33:33.779 --> 00:33:37.220
to put words in your mouth, but then this journey
00:33:37.220 --> 00:33:40.240
made you realize Uruguay like the importance
00:33:40.240 --> 00:33:44.069
of community and family and not so much always
00:33:44.069 --> 00:33:47.150
on achievement. Do you think that changed that
00:33:47.150 --> 00:33:48.869
introversion or do you think that's just a part
00:33:48.869 --> 00:33:52.529
of you and you got to work on that? I am absolutely
00:33:52.529 --> 00:33:56.519
still an introvert to this day. For me, I think
00:33:56.519 --> 00:33:59.920
the biggest influence of that part of my personality
00:33:59.920 --> 00:34:02.920
is that I was already naturally accustomed to
00:34:02.920 --> 00:34:06.660
pulling in and going inward versus being outwardly
00:34:06.660 --> 00:34:10.530
expressive. And so it delayed the evolution of
00:34:10.530 --> 00:34:14.570
my growth in allowing people in because it delayed
00:34:14.570 --> 00:34:18.710
the expression of what I was really experiencing.
00:34:19.110 --> 00:34:23.650
It delayed connecting with people sometimes where
00:34:23.650 --> 00:34:26.230
they could actually see what was going on for
00:34:26.230 --> 00:34:32.230
me. I often speak about patterns, how we operate
00:34:32.230 --> 00:34:36.989
in patterns on my podcast, and some of those
00:34:36.989 --> 00:34:41.719
patterns are protective. And I just, because
00:34:41.719 --> 00:34:45.119
of your journey, because of what you did, yes,
00:34:45.139 --> 00:34:48.599
you're still an introvert, but the pattern changed,
00:34:49.039 --> 00:34:51.059
you know, asking people to go to the beach with
00:34:51.059 --> 00:34:53.559
you. Like, you know, you had to really think
00:34:53.559 --> 00:34:55.260
about that instead of going like, hey, I wanna
00:34:55.260 --> 00:34:57.760
go to the beach, you guys wanna go? That's not
00:34:57.760 --> 00:34:59.860
you, you know, that's me. I would definitely
00:34:59.860 --> 00:35:01.679
be like, it's so hot, let's all go to the beach.
00:35:01.699 --> 00:35:03.619
You know, I would try and do something like that,
00:35:03.679 --> 00:35:07.380
but. I like that even though your brain's like,
00:35:07.519 --> 00:35:11.000
should I ask? Maybe I should. And then doing
00:35:11.000 --> 00:35:13.639
it. I don't know. You just, you changed your
00:35:13.639 --> 00:35:15.900
pattern and I really appreciate it. It's true.
00:35:16.300 --> 00:35:19.380
And I would add a layer to it in that, and I
00:35:19.380 --> 00:35:20.800
would say, and I haven't really talked about
00:35:20.800 --> 00:35:23.320
this before, but if there was one thing that
00:35:23.320 --> 00:35:25.880
I could have changed about that, all of that
00:35:25.880 --> 00:35:28.340
experience, it would have been connecting with
00:35:28.340 --> 00:35:31.460
people more because I was introverted. It wasn't
00:35:31.460 --> 00:35:34.650
necessarily always within my energy bank. to
00:35:34.650 --> 00:35:38.090
do that. And I wasn't necessarily shy. I mean,
00:35:38.110 --> 00:35:40.630
I'm in my mid thirties at this time. I still
00:35:40.630 --> 00:35:45.269
am. I've spoken to people. I'm okay with that.
00:35:45.710 --> 00:35:49.050
But yeah, for sure. I wish that I could have
00:35:49.050 --> 00:35:52.409
connected in that way more. I think it would
00:35:52.409 --> 00:35:56.190
have added so much enrichment to my experience.
00:35:56.750 --> 00:36:00.389
But in saying that, I also say that with a lot
00:36:00.389 --> 00:36:05.159
of non -judgment of myself. just accepting that
00:36:05.159 --> 00:36:07.880
this is a part of my personality. I'm working
00:36:07.880 --> 00:36:11.380
with what I got and that it's okay. Good for
00:36:11.380 --> 00:36:16.679
you. I like that a lot. So, honoring who you've
00:36:16.679 --> 00:36:20.639
been, right? In chapter seven, which I love the
00:36:20.639 --> 00:36:25.059
title, yes and, I love that, you talk about honoring
00:36:25.059 --> 00:36:28.480
who we've been all along. Obviously, that's interesting
00:36:28.480 --> 00:36:31.840
to me, right? That's like a core concept of mine.
00:36:33.099 --> 00:36:36.800
You talk about recovering parts of yourself that
00:36:36.800 --> 00:36:41.480
striving had buried, not inventing a new self.
00:36:42.699 --> 00:36:47.530
What did you find that was already yours? I love
00:36:47.530 --> 00:36:50.070
this question. It gets to the root of something
00:36:50.070 --> 00:36:52.929
that you and I are both passionate about talking
00:36:52.929 --> 00:36:57.210
about, which is authenticity. What does that
00:36:57.210 --> 00:37:00.670
mean for people? And I learned so much about
00:37:00.670 --> 00:37:04.739
that. I learned that there are parts of us that
00:37:04.739 --> 00:37:08.780
we think is our authentic version of ourselves,
00:37:08.780 --> 00:37:13.320
but it's really just layers of coping mechanisms
00:37:13.320 --> 00:37:18.119
or survival of the modern world. For sure. As
00:37:18.119 --> 00:37:21.679
an example, being an A type or being highly attached
00:37:21.679 --> 00:37:23.860
to being the productive one or the organized
00:37:23.860 --> 00:37:26.139
one or the one that has it all together or the
00:37:26.139 --> 00:37:28.360
one that has all the answers. And we think this
00:37:28.360 --> 00:37:32.420
is who we are, but really it's just these layers
00:37:32.420 --> 00:37:36.570
that we've added on to ourselves. And sometimes
00:37:36.570 --> 00:37:40.590
when we get those opportunities for, like I did,
00:37:41.230 --> 00:37:44.349
for that to fall away, you're left with what
00:37:44.349 --> 00:37:49.150
is left. I mentioned earlier, a lot of that for
00:37:49.150 --> 00:37:51.570
me looked like things that had always been true.
00:37:52.760 --> 00:37:55.139
I don't know if you're into astrology at all.
00:37:55.199 --> 00:37:57.300
I definitely am. A little bit, a little bit,
00:37:57.400 --> 00:37:59.989
yeah. I am a Taurus rising and a lot of those
00:37:59.989 --> 00:38:02.409
characteristics are love of nature, love of the
00:38:02.409 --> 00:38:05.230
five senses. Those are the things that I was
00:38:05.230 --> 00:38:08.190
tapping into so deeply during these travels.
00:38:08.369 --> 00:38:11.130
The things that I wanted to do city after city,
00:38:11.250 --> 00:38:14.489
go to an art museum, enjoy the architecture,
00:38:14.710 --> 00:38:20.409
eat good food, and my absolute need to be in
00:38:20.409 --> 00:38:24.469
nature regularly to clear my mind, to hear my
00:38:24.469 --> 00:38:29.030
intuition more strongly, to rebalance my energy
00:38:29.030 --> 00:38:32.630
and reset myself. And then I was also learning
00:38:32.630 --> 00:38:36.469
about parts of myself that were an authentic
00:38:36.469 --> 00:38:39.809
expression, but were different depending on my
00:38:39.809 --> 00:38:44.269
environment. As an example, if I was in Japan,
00:38:44.289 --> 00:38:47.369
which is a very reserved, organized country,
00:38:47.889 --> 00:38:50.750
the parts of me that were in alignment and matched
00:38:50.750 --> 00:38:53.590
that were the parts that I was expressing more
00:38:53.590 --> 00:38:58.900
versus if I was in a more expressive country
00:38:58.900 --> 00:39:03.000
like Brazil, I was more a little bit more up
00:39:03.000 --> 00:39:06.199
and down, like down for fun, a little bit more
00:39:06.199 --> 00:39:11.539
outgoing, a little bit more comedic. And so there's
00:39:11.539 --> 00:39:14.659
still parts of you. You didn't have to invent
00:39:14.659 --> 00:39:16.960
them. You didn't have to say, oh, they act like
00:39:16.960 --> 00:39:19.079
this. So now I have to act like this. There's
00:39:19.079 --> 00:39:23.719
still a part of you. Yes. And it's just the true,
00:39:23.980 --> 00:39:27.210
true version of who you are, how you would naturally
00:39:27.210 --> 00:39:32.369
react in a situation, not trying to be something
00:39:32.369 --> 00:39:37.530
that you're not or trying to mold yourself to
00:39:37.530 --> 00:39:43.030
fit in, but being the authentic expression of
00:39:43.030 --> 00:39:46.690
yourself in that exact moment. And I also think
00:39:46.690 --> 00:39:50.010
it's important to know that, and sometimes it
00:39:50.010 --> 00:39:53.039
might feel like to be authentic is like you're
00:39:53.039 --> 00:39:56.139
always the same, but that's a very rigid idea.
00:39:57.099 --> 00:40:00.639
We are actually always changing, adapting, learning,
00:40:01.000 --> 00:40:06.639
growing. Yes. And so you have to accept that
00:40:06.639 --> 00:40:10.980
as a part of your life's journey, you are meant
00:40:10.980 --> 00:40:14.340
to change. Right. Right. And not to be scared
00:40:14.340 --> 00:40:17.679
of it, right? And because, I mean, it seems like
00:40:17.679 --> 00:40:21.139
for it to count, growth is always talked about
00:40:21.139 --> 00:40:24.099
as something serious or like really difficult,
00:40:24.099 --> 00:40:28.940
right? And I want to know in the book you talk
00:40:28.940 --> 00:40:35.119
about joy and that counted as evidence of growth,
00:40:35.260 --> 00:40:38.719
right? So what changed for you when you realized
00:40:38.719 --> 00:40:42.199
that joy was part of growth? Yeah, and this goes
00:40:42.199 --> 00:40:44.360
back to what you brought up. The title of my
00:40:44.360 --> 00:40:47.900
chapter was Yes and because yes, I was going
00:40:47.900 --> 00:40:52.800
through a lot of major rebirth growth, a lot
00:40:52.800 --> 00:40:55.440
of change in my life, a lot of learning to do
00:40:55.440 --> 00:40:59.079
things differently, and navigating change and
00:40:59.079 --> 00:41:03.159
uncertainty differently for the first time. And
00:41:03.159 --> 00:41:07.380
internally, that was very challenging. But externally,
00:41:08.099 --> 00:41:13.539
I was also very happy a lot of times. I was appreciating
00:41:13.539 --> 00:41:16.699
other cultures. I was getting to have this experience
00:41:16.699 --> 00:41:19.579
that like, I was deeply, deeply grateful for
00:41:19.579 --> 00:41:22.860
how many people get to experience that kind of
00:41:22.860 --> 00:41:26.800
travel. It's so rare. It was such a privilege.
00:41:28.239 --> 00:41:33.880
And so like, yes, I was growing and I was having
00:41:33.880 --> 00:41:40.239
joy and the joy was sort of this proof that the
00:41:40.239 --> 00:41:44.159
growth was happening, that it was for my best
00:41:44.159 --> 00:41:48.650
interest, that progress was being made because
00:41:48.650 --> 00:41:54.590
not all of growth has to look like this grueling,
00:41:54.989 --> 00:41:59.449
painful, all the time, sort of, ripping band
00:41:59.449 --> 00:42:03.769
-aids off kind of experience. Yeah, yeah. There's
00:42:03.769 --> 00:42:07.469
a part in your book, it's in Italy, but now I'm
00:42:07.469 --> 00:42:11.190
blanking on where you were, where it was a rainy
00:42:11.190 --> 00:42:17.670
day and you took the day to... Cook food take
00:42:17.670 --> 00:42:23.900
naps and just Be and you know a little bit ago
00:42:23.900 --> 00:42:25.559
You said like you were always looking forward
00:42:25.559 --> 00:42:29.099
and it seemed like you were super super present
00:42:29.099 --> 00:42:35.369
in that time in the book and I Thought that that
00:42:35.369 --> 00:42:39.849
was a huge moment of growth For you to just be
00:42:40.010 --> 00:42:45.920
it was a pivotal moment of my life the backstory
00:42:45.920 --> 00:42:51.090
I decided to take 24 hours and detox from everything.
00:42:52.050 --> 00:42:55.849
No phone, no TV, no music, no book, nothing.
00:42:56.309 --> 00:42:59.690
And it was on this rainy, foggy day. Yeah, I
00:42:59.690 --> 00:43:02.630
had rented a chalet in the Dolomite Mountains
00:43:02.630 --> 00:43:07.349
and I just sat there drinking tea, taking naps.
00:43:08.110 --> 00:43:11.369
I was very present and it was from that moment
00:43:11.369 --> 00:43:13.690
that I talked about where I realized that I was
00:43:13.690 --> 00:43:17.329
in this void. where I realized that I was really
00:43:17.329 --> 00:43:20.150
struggling with the uncertainty and that something
00:43:20.150 --> 00:43:24.329
within me and my mindset had to change so that
00:43:24.329 --> 00:43:29.349
I could continue not to have such a hard time
00:43:29.349 --> 00:43:34.150
with this. And it goes back to the title in a
00:43:34.150 --> 00:43:38.329
big way of my memoir, The Fog and the Flow. I
00:43:38.329 --> 00:43:41.349
was in this fog of life and literally in the
00:43:41.349 --> 00:43:44.070
fog of the Dolomite Mountains. where I could
00:43:44.070 --> 00:43:47.710
only see a few steps ahead at a time on the path
00:43:47.710 --> 00:43:51.730
of my life. And so it was from there that I was
00:43:51.730 --> 00:43:55.530
deciding to flow with life instead of trying
00:43:55.530 --> 00:44:00.909
to control it. Control essentially is an illusion
00:44:00.909 --> 00:44:04.269
that we tend to always want to strive for. But
00:44:04.269 --> 00:44:07.809
there's so many examples of life, of things happening
00:44:07.809 --> 00:44:11.610
that we never predicted or could have seen coming.
00:44:12.090 --> 00:44:16.579
change our lives in big and small ways. So it
00:44:16.579 --> 00:44:19.500
was coming back to being more in the present
00:44:19.500 --> 00:44:22.940
moment and learning to navigate from that space
00:44:22.940 --> 00:44:26.320
instead of always just the mind and trying to
00:44:26.320 --> 00:44:30.980
plan, predict everything. When you thought of
00:44:30.980 --> 00:44:34.579
that concept of the fog and the flow, did you
00:44:34.579 --> 00:44:37.139
think of that later after your journey was done
00:44:37.139 --> 00:44:39.519
thinking about writing the book or did you actually
00:44:39.519 --> 00:44:42.989
think of it in the moment? Like this is What
00:44:42.989 --> 00:44:46.780
is happening? The concept of being in a flow
00:44:46.780 --> 00:44:50.340
state is something that I was familiar with from
00:44:50.340 --> 00:44:54.800
my spiritual practices. And so the idea that
00:44:54.800 --> 00:44:59.559
you could flow with life, it was something, this
00:44:59.559 --> 00:45:02.000
concept that I had heard of, that I understood,
00:45:02.059 --> 00:45:06.059
but I had never practiced. It hadn't served me
00:45:06.059 --> 00:45:11.159
or I had never been sort of forced to even consider.
00:45:11.440 --> 00:45:13.780
doing things differently from what had always
00:45:13.780 --> 00:45:16.900
worked for me. The idea of the fog was something
00:45:16.900 --> 00:45:19.860
that I thought of while I was writing the book
00:45:19.860 --> 00:45:22.579
and putting together and reintegrating all of
00:45:22.579 --> 00:45:25.480
these lessons that I learned, finding meaning
00:45:25.480 --> 00:45:28.320
in what my journey was and what it is that I
00:45:28.320 --> 00:45:32.099
could offer other people that I thought, oh,
00:45:32.159 --> 00:45:36.099
you know, this fog, this metaphor, this visual
00:45:36.099 --> 00:45:40.059
physical representation is so much what it was
00:45:40.059 --> 00:45:44.309
like. for me. Yeah. All right. So it evolved,
00:45:44.590 --> 00:45:46.889
right? The entire experience, it evolved into
00:45:46.889 --> 00:45:50.960
that. I love that. And then, you know, I think
00:45:50.960 --> 00:45:54.320
that's an identity shift. You know, when you
00:45:54.380 --> 00:45:57.219
take that metaphor and it's totally applied to
00:45:57.219 --> 00:45:59.139
your life, which it can be applied to many of
00:45:59.139 --> 00:46:04.019
our lives, I think it starts to shift who you
00:46:04.019 --> 00:46:06.360
perceive yourself to be. That's what I think.
00:46:06.400 --> 00:46:11.789
Yeah. I really like that. In chapters eight,
00:46:11.519 --> 00:46:16.539
15 and 16, you really start to ask yourself everyday
00:46:16.539 --> 00:46:21.539
life questions. You said that you realized that
00:46:21.539 --> 00:46:25.980
clarity isn't certainty, which I love because
00:46:25.980 --> 00:46:28.699
sometimes people are like, there's my aha moment,
00:46:29.260 --> 00:46:32.400
but there's nothing certain afterwards, right?
00:46:33.400 --> 00:46:37.119
What does that look like for someone? who needs
00:46:37.119 --> 00:46:39.480
a change but can't blow up their life like you
00:46:39.480 --> 00:46:41.719
did. And blow up their life sounds negative.
00:46:41.920 --> 00:46:45.920
I really appreciate what you did. And I think
00:46:45.920 --> 00:46:48.019
you're kind of a badass for doing what you did,
00:46:48.099 --> 00:46:51.000
but somebody might see that as like, oh, that's
00:46:51.000 --> 00:46:53.579
so risky for me. So what does that look like?
00:46:53.619 --> 00:46:56.340
Clarity is uncertainty for someone else's life
00:46:56.340 --> 00:46:58.920
that needs a change. And sometimes we would think
00:46:58.920 --> 00:47:01.559
like those feel the same or those should be the
00:47:01.559 --> 00:47:04.260
same thing, but they're actually quite different.
00:47:04.739 --> 00:47:08.219
When you get to a point in your life where you're
00:47:08.219 --> 00:47:13.090
ready to make a decision, it's often the case
00:47:13.090 --> 00:47:16.369
that actually there really isn't any certainty
00:47:16.369 --> 00:47:20.860
behind it working out. But in that moment of
00:47:20.860 --> 00:47:24.960
deciding, you can have clarity on what it is
00:47:24.960 --> 00:47:28.340
that you want to do and how it is that you're
00:47:28.340 --> 00:47:31.260
going to make the next steps to do that. And
00:47:31.260 --> 00:47:35.760
they're two different things. There are very
00:47:35.760 --> 00:47:39.820
few things in life that are truly certain, but
00:47:39.820 --> 00:47:42.739
it doesn't mean that we can't be clear about
00:47:42.739 --> 00:47:49.440
what it is that we're going to do. And to navigate
00:47:49.440 --> 00:47:52.460
the difference between those two is where you
00:47:52.460 --> 00:47:58.639
come back to what is the authentic expression
00:47:58.639 --> 00:48:01.679
of myself and what I want to do, not what others
00:48:01.679 --> 00:48:04.280
want me to do, what I think I'm supposed to do.
00:48:04.579 --> 00:48:07.099
what I feel is like the safe thing to do. What
00:48:07.099 --> 00:48:10.440
is the authentic thing that you're wanting to
00:48:10.440 --> 00:48:14.829
do? How do you trust yourself, even though you
00:48:14.829 --> 00:48:17.050
don't have certainty that something's going to
00:48:17.050 --> 00:48:21.869
work out, that you trust yourself to move one
00:48:21.869 --> 00:48:26.980
step at a time and make those changes? And for
00:48:26.980 --> 00:48:28.820
the people that are at this place, like, yeah,
00:48:28.880 --> 00:48:31.599
I can't just like... quit my job and travel the
00:48:31.599 --> 00:48:35.199
world, or even just, not even that, but another
00:48:35.199 --> 00:48:38.059
version of drop everything and make a big pivot.
00:48:38.619 --> 00:48:41.840
Sometimes you can get to that authentic clarity
00:48:41.840 --> 00:48:45.460
about what it is that you do want to do. And
00:48:45.460 --> 00:48:48.960
you can take it one step at a time with what
00:48:48.960 --> 00:48:52.000
makes sense specifically to your life. We're
00:48:52.000 --> 00:48:55.940
all meant to lead unique individual lives. We
00:48:55.940 --> 00:48:59.849
have our own. life purpose and mission and the
00:48:59.849 --> 00:49:01.469
things that we're going to learn and experience
00:49:01.469 --> 00:49:03.550
in these lives. And so not everyone's story is
00:49:03.550 --> 00:49:07.590
going to look the same. This was my story. You
00:49:07.590 --> 00:49:09.769
have a totally different thing going on for you.
00:49:09.809 --> 00:49:12.809
And that's what makes life interesting. That's
00:49:12.809 --> 00:49:16.329
what made travel interesting. The people behind
00:49:16.329 --> 00:49:19.769
it, living their lives, the culture, the humanity.
00:49:21.349 --> 00:49:26.539
No, absolutely. You know, I believe I was listening
00:49:26.539 --> 00:49:28.699
to something when the pandemic, when the shutdown
00:49:28.699 --> 00:49:32.980
first happened, and it was some kind of real.
00:49:33.300 --> 00:49:37.300
And someone said, you know, humans like beginning,
00:49:37.679 --> 00:49:40.719
a middle, and an end. We like that tidiness,
00:49:40.719 --> 00:49:44.139
right? And something like the pandemic, we knew
00:49:44.139 --> 00:49:47.820
the beginning. We knew nothing else. And that
00:49:47.820 --> 00:49:53.320
uncertainty made a lot of stress for many people,
00:49:53.460 --> 00:49:58.739
right? And it's the same for not having a blueprint
00:49:58.739 --> 00:50:04.019
moving forward. And as a coach, as a friend,
00:50:04.880 --> 00:50:07.460
I hear people say, like, I just need to know
00:50:07.460 --> 00:50:11.820
the right next step to take. And my question
00:50:11.820 --> 00:50:16.840
is always the same every time I hear this. What
00:50:16.840 --> 00:50:21.090
do you want? That is a very hard question. People
00:50:21.090 --> 00:50:24.780
think they can answer it right away. They can't.
00:50:24.860 --> 00:50:28.000
I'll ask myself, what do you want? Well, I want
00:50:28.000 --> 00:50:30.119
this. I want that. I want that. No, no, no. What
00:50:30.119 --> 00:50:34.960
do you want? So I think that's the whole clarity
00:50:34.960 --> 00:50:39.579
part of it. And then the blueprint comes afterward,
00:50:39.579 --> 00:50:43.710
you know, once you figure that piece out. Yeah.
00:50:43.710 --> 00:50:46.630
I wanted to add to that the part about the blueprint
00:50:46.630 --> 00:50:49.909
as well, and a really important piece that I
00:50:49.909 --> 00:50:52.110
wanted to bring together. I started to talk a
00:50:52.110 --> 00:50:56.590
lot about how I moved away from all mind in making
00:50:56.590 --> 00:50:59.309
decisions and planning for the future to now
00:50:59.309 --> 00:51:01.530
being more in the present moment, being more
00:51:01.530 --> 00:51:04.940
trusting and going with the flow. But something
00:51:04.940 --> 00:51:08.840
that challenged me even further once I returned
00:51:08.840 --> 00:51:13.039
was I had swung so wide from one to the other.
00:51:14.409 --> 00:51:19.130
And now I was at a point in life where life around
00:51:19.130 --> 00:51:21.690
me and the place where I was in at that time
00:51:21.690 --> 00:51:25.150
was asking a little bit more of the former way
00:51:25.150 --> 00:51:28.570
of me operating. And so my message is not that
00:51:28.570 --> 00:51:31.110
the only way to navigate these kinds of things
00:51:31.110 --> 00:51:33.429
is just to like trust everything and go with
00:51:33.429 --> 00:51:36.650
it. It's balancing the two because they both
00:51:36.650 --> 00:51:40.630
serve a purpose. You can figure out with some
00:51:40.630 --> 00:51:43.530
clarity what it is that you actually want because
00:51:43.530 --> 00:51:46.829
you can feel it within you. Sometimes it is a
00:51:46.829 --> 00:51:50.929
gut feeling or just like you just know and then
00:51:50.929 --> 00:51:53.829
you can use the mind to help figure out how you're
00:51:53.809 --> 00:51:57.070
going to get there with a little bit of that
00:51:57.070 --> 00:52:00.210
trust and surrender and go with the flow as you
00:52:00.210 --> 00:52:03.590
step towards it. So it's not one or the other.
00:52:03.730 --> 00:52:07.250
We're not saying that part is demonized. Don't
00:52:07.250 --> 00:52:10.190
do that. And we're not saying that go with the
00:52:10.190 --> 00:52:14.170
flow is the only way to live your life. Finding
00:52:14.170 --> 00:52:20.110
a balance of both has been a key to peace for
00:52:20.110 --> 00:52:25.400
me. I love that. That is wonderful. I'm interested
00:52:25.400 --> 00:52:30.670
when you came back, you know, family, friends,
00:52:31.550 --> 00:52:34.730
they like to check off boxes. They like to have
00:52:34.730 --> 00:52:39.010
you like, Renee is this, right? And now you've
00:52:39.010 --> 00:52:43.530
gone through this journey that has to be life
00:52:43.530 --> 00:52:46.340
-changing, especially everything that I know
00:52:46.340 --> 00:52:51.179
from the book. It was life -changing. Did you
00:52:51.659 --> 00:52:56.349
Did anyone have trouble accepting who Renee was
00:52:56.349 --> 00:53:01.289
when she got back? Did you have trouble being
00:53:01.289 --> 00:53:06.719
the person that you are or now? Did you have
00:53:06.719 --> 00:53:08.599
trouble with it? Did others have trouble with
00:53:08.599 --> 00:53:10.559
it? And how did you rectify that? Sorry, that
00:53:10.559 --> 00:53:13.719
question took a long time to ask. I'm with you.
00:53:13.800 --> 00:53:20.170
I got you. At first when I arrived, I knew and
00:53:20.170 --> 00:53:22.469
I decided, okay, I'm going to write this memoir.
00:53:22.860 --> 00:53:24.900
I don't know what comes after that. There's not
00:53:24.900 --> 00:53:27.239
a lot of certainty in this, but I had gotten
00:53:27.239 --> 00:53:32.059
so accustomed to distrusting all of that, that
00:53:32.059 --> 00:53:36.070
it wasn't a big concern for me initially. But
00:53:36.070 --> 00:53:39.730
then I started getting questions from loving,
00:53:39.869 --> 00:53:42.409
well -meaning family and people around me, like,
00:53:42.550 --> 00:53:45.489
what is the plan with this? What are you going
00:53:45.489 --> 00:53:48.050
to do after? Are you going to go back to your
00:53:48.050 --> 00:53:53.019
old career? All of these questions and then Some
00:53:53.019 --> 00:53:56.820
of my old fears started kicking in. I even at
00:53:56.820 --> 00:53:59.559
one point considered abandoning writing the book
00:53:59.559 --> 00:54:03.559
completely, just going back to my career in tech,
00:54:03.739 --> 00:54:07.679
doing a safe thing. But there was this, this
00:54:07.679 --> 00:54:09.920
just gut feeling in me where I felt like, no,
00:54:10.079 --> 00:54:12.519
I'm, this is the next thing that I'm meant to
00:54:12.519 --> 00:54:16.500
do. I don't have any promise that it'll lead
00:54:16.500 --> 00:54:20.019
anywhere. I just know this is the right move
00:54:20.019 --> 00:54:26.500
for me. And a lot of what I struggled with was
00:54:26.500 --> 00:54:30.139
feeling still that I needed to have it all figured
00:54:30.139 --> 00:54:32.880
out, that I had to have easy answers for other
00:54:32.880 --> 00:54:35.960
people. Even though I didn't necessarily need
00:54:35.960 --> 00:54:39.019
easy answers for myself at this point, so much
00:54:39.019 --> 00:54:42.559
of my concern was about what other people thought.
00:54:43.329 --> 00:54:48.269
And it's something that I had to move past because
00:54:48.269 --> 00:54:52.699
it wasn't serving me. at all. And ultimately,
00:54:54.070 --> 00:54:56.030
it's just well -meaning questions, like when
00:54:56.030 --> 00:54:58.050
people ask you, they really, they just want to
00:54:58.050 --> 00:54:59.949
know that you're happy, that you're doing okay,
00:55:00.050 --> 00:55:03.530
they're checking in on you. And I think a very
00:55:03.530 --> 00:55:06.210
big part of that and why some of us experience
00:55:06.210 --> 00:55:07.989
that when we're going through changes, they're
00:55:07.989 --> 00:55:09.949
trying to do something different, especially
00:55:09.949 --> 00:55:13.170
when we reach our mid -30s, mid -life, or later,
00:55:13.570 --> 00:55:17.070
is that we feel like the only time we're allowed
00:55:17.070 --> 00:55:19.610
to figure things out and not have our shit together
00:55:19.610 --> 00:55:23.730
is when we're like 19, 20, 21, like when no one
00:55:23.730 --> 00:55:26.610
expects anything of you and you are in that stage
00:55:26.610 --> 00:55:28.789
of life of just figuring out and we feel like
00:55:28.789 --> 00:55:33.030
we can never revisit being a beginner ever again.
00:55:33.829 --> 00:55:37.210
We are tied to that identity of like, no, I'm
00:55:37.210 --> 00:55:39.250
fine. I got everything's good. Like, don't worry.
00:55:39.670 --> 00:55:43.210
It's and It's so much more of like this pressure
00:55:43.210 --> 00:55:45.530
that we're putting on ourselves that doesn't
00:55:45.530 --> 00:55:50.429
need to exist. Yeah, absolutely. I'm going to
00:55:50.429 --> 00:55:54.389
ask you a few rapid -fire questions, okay? What's
00:55:54.389 --> 00:55:57.230
something you no longer need to prove? I no longer
00:55:57.230 --> 00:56:00.409
need to prove that I have everything figured
00:56:00.409 --> 00:56:05.619
out. What did you overpack emotionally? Ooh,
00:56:06.119 --> 00:56:10.349
I overpacked... emotionally that I had to figure
00:56:10.349 --> 00:56:14.269
everything out for myself. Super hyper independent.
00:56:15.619 --> 00:56:19.699
Something you're surprisingly willing to be bad
00:56:19.699 --> 00:56:25.460
at now. Ooh. Admit and show that I don't know
00:56:25.460 --> 00:56:29.559
what I'm doing. That is hard, huh? It's very,
00:56:29.699 --> 00:56:32.960
very hard. It's hard to be hard. Yeah. What part
00:56:32.960 --> 00:56:38.699
of your younger self would you invite back today?
00:56:38.949 --> 00:56:44.289
Ooh. The part that has this deep imagination
00:56:44.289 --> 00:56:47.789
that can create this pretend ideas like I'm a
00:56:47.789 --> 00:56:51.769
princess in a castle energy. Uh -huh. Uh -huh.
00:56:52.010 --> 00:56:55.070
I like that. I think your younger self, that
00:56:55.070 --> 00:56:57.730
creative, obviously you wrote this book. It's
00:56:57.730 --> 00:57:00.769
very well written. You did a great job. Thank
00:57:00.769 --> 00:57:05.250
you. Yeah. Finish the sentence. I feel most like
00:57:05.250 --> 00:57:11.159
myself when... I am... In nature, with a loved
00:57:11.159 --> 00:57:16.199
one and a dog. Yeah, that's a good one. Last
00:57:16.199 --> 00:57:19.059
one. What are you willing to leave unanswered
00:57:19.059 --> 00:57:23.670
right now? What comes after the book? Well, then
00:57:23.670 --> 00:57:25.510
I want to know, right? Maybe everyone will want
00:57:25.510 --> 00:57:26.610
to know. We're all going to find out together.
00:57:27.190 --> 00:57:30.289
We're all going to find out. Thank you so much
00:57:30.289 --> 00:57:33.190
for being a part of the Original Self podcast.
00:57:33.510 --> 00:57:38.329
I thought this was a great interview and your...
00:57:38.300 --> 00:57:42.760
authentic, honest answers like your vulnerability.
00:57:43.679 --> 00:57:47.159
It's so welcomed and I'm really thankful and
00:57:47.159 --> 00:57:50.719
grateful to it. I am so grateful as well to have
00:57:50.719 --> 00:57:54.880
connected with you today and I just hope that
00:57:54.880 --> 00:57:57.360
this interview reaches people to feel a little
00:57:57.360 --> 00:58:01.519
bit less alone in their personal journey. Yeah.
00:58:01.610 --> 00:58:05.610
Absolutely. And I will put in the links how to
00:58:05.610 --> 00:58:08.969
get the fog in the flow, the memoir, and also
00:58:08.969 --> 00:58:12.349
your links to all your social media and your
00:58:12.349 --> 00:58:14.250
podcast that we didn't really talk very much
00:58:14.250 --> 00:58:17.690
about, but it's called The Effing Audacity, which
00:58:17.690 --> 00:58:20.829
I like very much. And so you can find that wherever
00:58:20.829 --> 00:58:22.829
you listen to your podcast, but I'll have a link
00:58:22.829 --> 00:58:25.789
in the episode notes to everyone. Thank you so
00:58:25.789 --> 00:58:28.929
much, Renee. Thank you. So that was my interview
00:58:28.929 --> 00:58:33.170
with the insightful Renee Maxine Haas. What stays
00:58:33.170 --> 00:58:37.289
with me is that change doesn't always mean becoming
00:58:37.289 --> 00:58:41.190
someone new. Sometimes it means returning to
00:58:41.190 --> 00:58:44.050
the parts of ourselves that were always there
00:58:44.050 --> 00:58:47.750
and then trusting that we can take the next step
00:58:47.750 --> 00:58:52.070
without seeing the whole path. If something in
00:58:52.070 --> 00:58:55.190
this conversation resonated with you and you'd
00:58:55.190 --> 00:58:58.579
like to explore it, start small. get curious,
00:58:59.219 --> 00:59:03.150
and then take the next honest step. I'm open
00:59:03.150 --> 00:59:06.130
to walking through the process with you. And
00:59:06.130 --> 00:59:08.630
if this episode meant something to you, share
00:59:08.630 --> 00:59:11.769
it with someone who might need it, and then follow
00:59:11.769 --> 00:59:13.750
The Original Self podcast so you don't miss the
00:59:13.750 --> 00:59:17.440
next one. I'm Evet DeCota. Thank you so much for
00:59:17.440 --> 00:59:19.099
listening, and I hope you have a great day.
Who is Renee Maxine Haas?
Renee Maxine Haas is the author of The Fog and the Flow and host of The Effing Audacity podcast. She traveled solo through 50 countries after leaving a career in tech at 35.
What is The Fog and the Flow about?
The memoir follows Renee’s solo travels and return to everyday life, exploring control, self-trust, identity, and uncertainty.
Do I need to make a major life change to relate to this episode?
The episode’s questions also apply to everyday choices about work, expectations, and what matters to you. A next step can fit within your current responsibilities.
